We Are Lions Ministry: The Lions Den
We Are Lions Ministry: The Lions Den
Fivefold Ministry: Apostles and Pastors
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What does it mean to truly embody the gifts of the five-fold ministry? Discover the profound insights behind Paul's teachings in Ephesians 4 as we kick off Season Two of the "We Are Lions" podcast. We begin with a heartfelt thank you to our dedicated listeners and share an exciting new way for you to partner with us. This episode sets the stage for our two-part series on the five-fold ministry—apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, and evangelist—and their roles in building a robust church community.
Ever wondered how Apostle Paul balanced self-recognition and external validation in his ministry? We dive deep into the unique calling of apostles, exploring both historical and modern contexts. You'll hear thought-provoking discussions on the apostolic gifting, its multifaceted nature, and the critical role of raising and discipling future leaders. With insights from Pastor Jeremy Graham and the influential work of Damon Thompson, we unravel the complexities of this vital ministry function and its impact on the church's mission.
Misconceptions about pastoral leadership abound in modern Western churches, and we aim to set the record straight. Through personal stories and wisdom from "The Complete Wineskin" by Harold Eberle, we'll redefine what it means to be a true pastor. Emphasizing genuine care, humility, and theological training, this episode challenges the conventional view of pastoral roles, advocating for a balanced and community-focused approach. Join us for an enriching conversation that not only highlights the importance of aligning with your spiritual gifts but also fosters a unified and strong church community.
Hey everyone, welcome to the we Are Lions podcast presented by Corey, Adam and John, the Lion Crew. We are so thankful that you have decided to join us today, or if you've joined us in the past, thank you, thank you, thank you. Your continued support and prayers mean a lot to us. We also want you to engage with us. Please email us at wearelionsministry at gmailcom. We'd love to discuss topics or ways you can get involved with us in our ministry. We love putting this podcast out to help people grow their faith and understand how truly they are loved by a good, good father. So again, thank you, guys, for joining us. This is the start of season two, so we're so excited to get rolling with this, but I do encourage you go check out the several episodes that we have already put out. Hey guys, again thank you. Let's get into the episode.
Speaker 2What's up everyone. Welcome to the we Are Lions podcast. The Lions Den got the normal guys here podcast. The lion's den got the normal guys here. Mr Corey, what it do. Mr Adam, what's up? And I'm another one of your hosts, John. Johnny, no matter what you call me, Amen, as long as they call you something right. I just want to say I just want to take time to say thank you to everyone that even listens and downloads and gives. We got our second subscriber on through buzzsprout, which is the software if and I like letting people know how we grind right, because we have no experience in this stuff and we're making it happens I'm pretty proud of us I mean, if we're being honest, me and adam just talk a lot.
Speaker 2I know, johnny does the grind.
Speaker 3Johnny does the grinding on buzzsprout. He's the one that dealt with all the editing and has learned how to edit it himself.
Speaker 2Well, considering profit share is a very serious thing. We're making so much money because of this podcast. I'm just kidding, we're not making any money on this podcast.
Speaker 4I'm about to say excuse me, I give $6 a month okay.
Speaker 2He does, and we got our second subscriber, so it's helping. So I guess that's why I'm trying to say what I'm saying, to make it a joke is hey, we still need you to partner with us. And again, I know that's a taboo thing, taboo subject, right With ministry and money, because I see it in a lot of people's Facebook posts take money out of preaching, we'll see who's called but-. Dear God, yes, exactly, but here's the deal we need-.
Speaker 3Take money out of loan originations and let's see who keeps doing it Come on.
Speaker 4I'll preach Take money out of construction, see how many houses get-. Yeah, it's like what.
Speaker 3Yeah, sorry, that's not our topic.
Speaker 2That is not our topic, but maybe that's a little-.
Speaker 4That would be a very good topic for later on. I think so.
Speaker 2Yeah, we've said all of that to say, hey, we'd love for you to partner with us and we've got a PayPal link. That's kind of how we allow individuals to partner with us. I can get that to you. We usually have it in the little summary sections of every podcast we release, depending on where you're watching it from. I watch from Spotify Oftentimes watch listen.
Speaker 3Yeah, you listen, not yet, we're not on YouTube yet. One day yeah, you listen, not yet, we're not on YouTube yet. One day, one day, you'll be able to watch.
Speaker 2That's right. But we'd love for you to partner with us just to help make what we believe is good content, to help the believer just continue to grow and transform into the image of Christ. Amen, amen, amen. So we got a special topic today. I don't know who wants to release the topic. Topic of the day. I don't know who wants to release the topic. Go for it, okay. The five-fold ministry. I don't know if you've heard of the five-fold ministry before. Hopefully, if you've read your Bible, you've heard of the five-fold ministry. Maybe. Just you haven't heard it called that. Correct, correct, and I think, yeah, maybe that's a good point. If you've never heard it called that, I think it's prevalent in some denominations, where some it kind of fits in with. We'll call it cessationalism, where certain gifts that cease to exist in some people's theology, right, but with Paul and Ephesians Ephesians 4, we get the fivefold ministry, which is the apostle, the prophet, the pastor, the teacher and the evangelist. Look at you, bro, just rattle them all.
Speaker 4Yeah, that set up all night Just that one line, but he's got it written on the back of his hand. I do.
Speaker 2But our goal for the two segment because it's going to be a part one and a part two is to just kind of dig into what those are, how they operate, how they don't or shouldn't operate, and I'm just kind of coming up with little chapter marks for us guys but just kind of give a different aspect and angle that we each do every podcast anyways, and we'll go from there.
Speaker 3I mean, I think the importance is that the fivefold ministry and Paul doesn't call it this. That's why I said you maybe you've never heard it called this before, but the fivefold ministry really is what the layout of the New Testament church is built on. Right Is the different giftings that God has given to the leadership of the church.
Speaker 2And I'll just start with the scripture, and can I say something? Yeah, what you just said, because that's how it was laid out to me, they're giftings, not titles. Come on now. Giftings, not offices, too. That's that, and then maybe that's what I'm meaning. It's the same thing, yeah, I mean, yeah, they're giftings, not a, not a name badge that says you're important, sure.
Speaker 3I agree, you know, because if we even go back to the teaching of Jesus, right, the one who wants to be the greatest should become the servant of all. So I mean, even if we start talking about the fivefold ministry and which one may be considered the most important, if we're being honest, that one should be the greatest servant to them all, and we'll get into that. So in Ephesians, chapter 4, I'm actually going to read three verses, I think 11, 12, and 13. This is where we get the fivefold ministry from, and there are other giftings inside the church and we can talk about those maybe some other time, but we're going to talk about the big five today. That's what we call the fivefold ministry over the next two episodes.
Speaker 3And so this is what it says. It says now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church. He gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, and build up the church, which is the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.
Speaker 3And so I think the reason that these are considered the big five is because the way that it's kind of laid out is that Paul structures it so that these five are the leadership structure of the church.
Discussion on Apostleship and Giftings
Speaker 3Right, he says that the purpose of these five is to equip the church to do the work of the gospel, and I think that's important. And I think that's one of the things that we kind of miss today is that the work of the gospel is not fully done inside the four walls of the church. The equipping of God's people for the work of the gospel is what is supposed to be done inside the church. And so today we're going to break this up into two episodes, because I think these giftings are pretty important. We're going to talk about apostles and pastors today, and I think, if we're honest, pastor is not what we know it to be today. So who wants to jump in and start? I think we should maybe start with apostle, because I think, looking at the New Testament, I think that would kind of be considered like the top dog, maybe.
Speaker 2Yeah, Well, I think I'm going to release it to you, but something I was honestly studying last night and it was very unique. I was just reading dialogue online and this guy was talking about what he was doing. He was trying to search where, you know, one of the famous apostles that we know is Paul in the Bible. Right, it goes to Apostle Paul. Well, who gave Apostle Paul that title? Did he give it to himself? And that was the conversation is he was self-appointed, and I think that's a big topic maybe we could talk about and off the rip. Okay, off the rip.
Speaker 2I was thinking, well, if you carry a gifting and you're waiting for confirmation from somebody, could that keep you stagnant and not walk in the gifting that God has for you? But then the other side of it is accountability. The only thing I've ever known in my walk is, anytime anyone's ever been given that name, it's always been appointed by a leader or mentor in their life that we would say has the authority, with quotation marks and so I thought it was a really good conversation, because I think my viewpoint is you know, obviously is I don't know of anywhere in scripture, and that's why I was trying to search last night where it says that he was appointed it by an individual. But I think that ties so much into the whole title thing, because here's the deal. What was the fruit of his life? His fruit of a life was an apostle. He was going around.
Speaker 4Well, his thing. He calls himself an apostle out of due time, and I can't remember which letter this is in, but it's when he's laying out his story. He talks about going to Jerusalem and spending a couple of weeks there with the apostles and he talks about the apostles being the 12 followers. Those are the apostles and their eyewitnesses. That's what makes them who they are. They are eyewitnesses to Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection. He calls himself an apostle out of due time, in essence, an apostle by revelation, and he lays out what he's been teaching. He lays out his gospel and this is what's unique about Paul.
Speaker 4Most of your apostles if you ever get on Facebook and you see somebody with the, I just use Facebook as a thing where they have apostle as their first name, like if my Facebook were to read like Apostle Adam Crisp. Most of those people are not operating in the apostolic gifting. What they're doing is saying like I'm a leader gifting. What they're doing is saying I'm a leader. Paul went and took everything he'd been teaching for, however many years, lays it at their feet and gets their approval. So, yes, he's an apostle, but he's also submitting to the eyewitness apostles and they agreed. The Bible says that they offered him the right hand of fellowship and then reminded him to care for the poor. But anyway, he is an apostle by revelation, meaning that he didn't witness Jesus' life, but he encountered him and then it was revealed to him.
Speaker 3I like that word you used there which one Encounter. Yeah, buddy Sorry for those who are wondering, that is the name of the church that my wife and I have planted.
Speaker 2Yeah, Look at you trying to use this podcast. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 4Sorry, I had to throw it in there. No, you're good, buddy, if you're looking for a church and counter church, it's pretty good.
Speaker 2The pastor's a little bit questionable, but yeah, I mean it is what it is no, but don't go digging too much, because you are never going to be allowed to be a politician there's too many photos out there.
Speaker 3We got to get back on topic. We could go down my past for a long time, but that's not the topic of the day.
Speaker 4Yeah, correct. Sorry, I don't know how to tie that. I was going to make a joke but I was like no, I'm not going to Anyway what you see in that the early apostles. No, I'm not going to Anyway what you see in that the early apostles. First off, you have some people who are like when they have like an apostles conference or you see somebody talk about apostles now and they're like none of the apostles are in the room Because, like Johnny mentioned earlier with the cessationists, they believe that the apostles died out and that gifting died out. And no, you will never have a modern apostle be able to speak to Christianity and tell you what it is.
Speaker 4The apostles define that for us like the original apostles. So we're not going to have new apostles that replace the original, but the apostolic gifting is very much still alive. You see that in church planters. You see that in those who are leading it's like an apostolic visionary. They're casting vision, they're leading a movement. The difference is this is my opinion, this isn't in writing somewhere you can have people leading movements that are foreign to the church and foreign to the person of Jesus. They're in an apostolic gifting, but the apostles should be moving in unison with the church and with the spirit.
Speaker 4This is something that the early apostle said and, forgive me, I don't remember who said it. This is a few centuries after the church was launched. But he said God is not your father if the church is not your mother, and that you know as an apostle somebody operating in that apostolic vision. If you're operating outside of the church and I'm not talking about the institution, which, first off, the church is not an institution, but I'm not talking about outside of the four walls you grew up in or that you go to, I'm talking about the body of Christ's church If we're operating outside of the body of Christ, if we're not building up the body of Christ, the apostolic gifting is being used in a manner it's not designed to.
Speaker 2Well, let me tie that in. Yeah, because I want to make sure I'm not, because I said something earlier, but I want to make sure I'm clear. Paul came under the authority of the disciples.
Speaker 4Yes, right. I mean the disciples are the ones that were called the apostles, the 12 there.
Speaker 3I mean that's why he presented himself to them, right? I mean him and Peter did not agree on a lot of things, if I remember correctly. They weren't ever going to be best friends that hung out at the local pub Right.
Speaker 4Could you imagine how awkward that would be? Paul said he went up and stayed with Peter for a couple weeks. I can't imagine. Even though they're on the same team now they're working in unity I couldn't imagine just going in. Can you imagine the work that had to be done in Peter's heart by the?
Speaker 3spirit to host this guy who used to kill his friends yeah, and not slit his throat in his sleep.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3I mean, let's be honest yeah. Because I mean Paul was there when. Stephen was stoned. And Stephen was a friend, stephen was a friend, and so Peter had to like number, like the question had to cross his mind. Is this guy lying? Yeah, is he actually just making this a ploy to kill me?
Speaker 2He cut a dude's ear off, which we can talk about that another day. This joker was killing people.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, that's like the worst thing Peter did was cut a dude's ear off and Jesus fixed it. Paul literally killed people, yeah.
Speaker 2I mean there's dialogue in the Bible. We don't know if it really happened. He could have been pranking them.
Speaker 3I don't know what they did in the biblical times with pranks, but yeah, so back to apostles. I think for me I mean the basic definition of an apostle and I think why you can see Paul being an apostle. An apostle is just one who is sent right, the sent ones. I mean that's like a very basic, broken down definition.
Speaker 4I don't know that, that's a perfect translation of what would have been the original Greek. They're all sent, but yeah, I get what you're saying. I think the apostle is. I mean to say that they're the only one sent. I feel like I don't know if that's exactly what you're trying to say. I wasn't saying that's the only one that is sent.
Speaker 3I think that's just like a basic definition.
Speaker 4They're kind of a forerunner.
Speaker 3Yeah, Paul was the original one that Jesus said. I want you to now take this message to the Gentiles.
Speaker 4Originally when he sent out his 12,. He said don't take this message to anybody outside the children of God. Yeah, something that needs to be understood about the apostles, or just the term apostle A lot of times we confuse and conflate these terms. And that's apostle, bishop and father, and they all have apostolic giftings. But the problem is is that's usually not one person. But the problem is is that's usually not one person? And what you see a lot of times in the modern expression of the term is one person trying to be all three.
Speaker 4And I can't remember the guy who was a guest on our podcast last episode, cole Burks.
Speaker 4He was the one that told me this and I think he said Chris Green, who's a writer and theologian and all kinds of stuff Awesome Got to listen to and read. But he said when the Holy Spirit's at work, the lines are clear between bishop, father and apostle. So, like your spiritual father, that's an apostolic gifting and role. Someone who is a specific apostle, like they're to operate an apostolic, that's a specific role. Then somebody who's a bishop over a group or area of people like that's a specific role. Then somebody who's a bishop over a group or area of people, that's a specific role, but those lines get blurred a lot. When the lines get blurred, that's usually because we're operating a little bit outside of what it's designed to be. So, inside of the apostolic gifting an area we should have, in my opinion we should have multiple apostolic voices Someone who's like a spiritual father, someone who is casting vision into your life as an apostle, and somebody as a bishop, more like a spiritual director, so to speak.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely that's good. I think too. That's probably why I think there's a lot of people out in the church world that have a lot of confusion. I think it's not that it's hard to explain, but I think there's a lot of lines that get. It's a way to walk in authority, but it ends up hurting and not building, because I think, Ephesians why did even God give all of these offices?
The Role of the Apostle
Speaker 2Just kidding, why did God give all these giftings? It says so the body can. It's like so the body can walk in unity. It's like why did God give you all your organs? Right, you got the big ones, you got your, your brain, your heart and everything else. But, dude, if everything else ain't working right, it's, it's not working right. Yeah, so that's the key is what a good father that says hey, I love my children so much, I'm actually gonna appoint gift teams within strong people that walk in wholeness and walk in such a desire to see people set free. Yeah, it's going to raise the kingdom up in a way, because they need this. They need fathers, they need mothers to be able to nurture?
Speaker 4What if we think of it this way and forgive me, listeners, if I'm wrong in this, the way that I see it? Once again, I'm aware I could be wrong and I'm open to different opinion and different answers. What if the Apostolic gifting is the one that sets up the others? Because the Apostle can kind of touch all of the giftings, correct?
Speaker 2Shout out to Pastor Jeremy Graham. He taught me and I never thought of it this way is the Apostle's the thumb? Yeah, it touches, everything it touches every finger, which would be the other four giftings. So at any time his mindset is I love that.
Speaker 4Unless you have jacked up hands. Yeah, I can touch my pinky with my thumb, but it's hard, okay.
Speaker 2I didn't know where you were going with that, yeah.
Speaker 4Let's see, we're all trying.
Speaker 2If only there was a camera in the room. But his whole mindset is the apostle should be able to operate all of the gifts at any time. And if you think about it, it's true and I will say this anytime. This is my opinion, but I really feel it's very strong. I have seen people walk in the apostolic gift and you know when it's right, it's because it isn't about hey, look what I've built. This goes back into another episode we're going to do. I ain't going to give you the title just yet, but it's not about what I can do and what I can build. It's who can I raise up? Yeah, who can I send out, and I think that's I mean. Look at Paul. Paul didn't have to micromanage his churches. He came in, wrote a letter and said hey, you need to correct this.
Speaker 3Yeah, but Paul was also a leader to the leaders, right? That's kind of what I think about when I think about an apostle. Whenever Jess and I started talking about planting a church and we were putting together the board of directors for all of that, when we went to our pastor, this is how I presented it to him and I just said the example that I gave him and I just made it scriptural. I said I would like for you to be the Paul to me, Timothy, because I would love to have somebody who has done it be accountability to me, somebody that I can also reach out to. Right, Because Timothy may have been the leader of the church in his direct area, but Paul was a leader to Timothy as the leader of the church, and so that was kind of the presentation that I made to him and I say presentation, I just don't know how else to say it. When I worded it to him, I was just like I want somebody who is also in leadership to be a leader to me, being the leader, because we all need that. Yes, and so that's something that Jess and I have talked about.
Speaker 3As our church begins to grow, one of the things that I desire more than anything is I want to raise up, disciple, train, ordain and send out other people to plant churches. And you know, I think that's one of the ways that Encounter Church can touch the world, right? Yeah, Maybe my direct preaching, and I'm not saying that this will be the case, but what if my direct preaching never leaves the region of East Tennessee? I can still touch the world through the leaders that I raise up and send out. Because what if someone comes to me five years from now and they say, Pastor Corey, I have a heart to plant a church in downtown Los Angeles? Well, boy, that's a mission field. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3And I think what Johnny was talking about is, when you think about the apostolic gifting, it's like who can I raise up and send out and support? Yeah, you know Damon Thompson. Again, I feel like we talk about him every episode, but I feel like he's such a good example Damon talks a lot about. He always says I don't ever want anybody to call me Apostle Damon because it's not about a title to him. But Damon Thompson has, if we're being honest, probably hundreds, if not thousands of churches that he has raised up and sent people out to plant and he's touching the world because he was a leader to leaders and was willing to pour time into leaders and still pours time into leaders through these leadership retreats that he does and things like that, so that his leaders can be filled and equipped, so that then they can go back and equip their direct congregation of believers for the work of the gospel.
Speaker 4Real quick. I also am a fan of Damon Thompson, so to speak. The impact his teaching has had on my life is incredible. Yeah, he is an excellent example, and he's also an example of those lines being blurred. And I've never met him, I've never been under his ministry, but he is. I think it was an under the oaks thing where he said my actual title would be a bishop. But then he also is very big on the father and son's culture, and so it's one man operating in the apostolic, operating in the bishop role and operating in the father role. So, even though he is an excellent example of those things in the modern era, so to speak, from the outside, looking in it also looks like is he trying to take on more? And this is between him and God. I'm not calling out a sin, that's not the case, but is he able to be a father to each one of those sons, be a bishop to the churches he's over and speak apostolically, and I think he is to an extent.
Speaker 4But that's one of those examples of is one man who operates in the apostolic being lumped with too many roles, and I would say that's a product of the environment in which we don't know how to handle the fivefold ministry. And so in the same way, in the Western church, where if you feel called to ministry, it's like all right, well, you can be a youth pastor, a pastor, a missions pastor, you know. So we take all the giftings and lump them into one thing. So you find out somebody's operating the apostolic and all of a sudden all the apostolic roles are now forced to them, whereas, like I was saying earlier, in my opinion there are three expressions in the modern church for the apostolic gifting. But anyway, I think he's an excellent example of operating an apostolic gifts. He's also an example of somebody who is trying to operate in too many of the apostolic giftings at once.
Speaker 2I think too one key component.
Speaker 3And, corey, you can talk. So you've got the notes ready. No, I just have a book that was very freeing to my wife and I.
Speaker 2It's an old book but we'll go ahead and plug it in and you can talk.
Speaker 2No, no, I mean, you said something key and I'm going to tie something you both just said is you know, you went to a leader and said, hey, I want a covering, essentially I want an episode leader covering, really, and the importance of that I think is so key with individuals is I guess maybe I'm making just a little point here is Damon's able to walk in the apostolic because he had a father that was there for him when he needed him the most, in the most humble place of his life. You have to understand where he came from and I think that's the key for an apostolic father too, is to learn to operate with your gifting, but understand your giftings, because, again, I think part of Damon doesn't want to be called Apostle D, because that's what they call him in there is because he's envisioning I'd rather be a papa, I'd rather be a father, I don't want to be a title, I don't want to. The goal of the giftings was to raise up a family, not raise up a brand.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 2And I think that is the difference and you will see the fruit. It's like where he's talking about, like you want someone to, it's because you want fruit. You desire your church to be fruitful but also accountable. And I think you may not read it, but I believe Paul had that. Paul had that with the original disciples. Paul had it Because there was even that time he said if anybody can brag, it's me. I think he's saying like I'm actually more from a worldly standpoint, I have better credentials than every single one of these guys.
Speaker 4At one point he says as a matter of fact, you owe me your life.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think he's saying that, but I still understand the importance of coming under authority and come under the apostolic, and so I think part of that is we can tie it with the next gift we're going to talk to. This is the preacher right Is what we're talking about, Pastor. I call it preacher pastor, but maybe that's my flaw and here's why I'm saying that In the American church, we've made that the only gift that we need.
Speaker 4Yeah, I actually dealt with a student who came to me and he said I feel called to ministry. Can I have opportunities to preach? And I was like, yeah, man, absolutely. But if you feel called to ministry, I feel like I'm. I'd be selling you short if I only helped train you to preach because, like this needs to be fleshed out and grown and like where God's calling you to in in ministry. But preaching is only the cherry on top, so to speak. That's the easy part of the job.
Speaker 4If you feel called to ministry and all you do is train to preach or learn how to speak. You have not learned how to pastor.
Speaker 2Can I say something? You said something really key there, and I think this is the moments in our podcast. I'd like to help disciple a little bit. You just said fleshed out. You said grow. What do you mean by that? With young people that maybe are just ill-informed on what ministry means? Because you said something I think we need to talk about that.
Understanding and Humility in Ministry
Speaker 4Yeah, what I was meaning by that was I kind of look at it, let's put you on the spot. No, you're fine. I kind of look at it as a funnel approach. You're called to ministry? Awesome, let's see what that looks like. Not testing to see if you can even though that's part of ordination is setting people aside to watch them but if you feel called to ministry, that's the Spirit drawing you. Now, what's he calling you to in ministry? And if you have just this burning desire and it feels like you got a fire to quote not to Jesus, juke, but it feels like you've got a fire in your bones and you're called to preach, awesome, let's pursue that. Do you feel called to? It's not just one expression, and I feel like that's what we try to force is hey, I'm called to ministry, all right, there's an intern position in the kids ministry, the youth ministry. It's a great place to start, not. If you're not, if you don't have that pastor's heart, that's not a great place to start, you know.
Speaker 2No, and I think it's really good. Corey needs to talk, Cause I feel I look at him over there and he's got a ball of revelation about to be released. That is. I think that is a key component. This is going to kind of be this is going to surround all the gifts.
Speaker 2Okay, as a leader there's three leaders that are sitting here we can say for certain, just like Paul I have not figured it out yet, but here's what I've learned is God elevates humbleness. He elevates people that are humble, and I think part of the fleshing out is it's really cool to want that title, but are you considerably keeping your heart in check and your actions in check, that you're pursuing the family and the unity of the body over your selfish desires to be on stage? And I think that is a key component with the giftings is I think you can be gifted, but if you do not flesh things out and continuously ask the Lord to make sure you're called in a particular, you have a particular gifting if you will, because oftentimes I think we take the gift. I feel like there's people that have the gifting that never hold a job title. Yeah Right, Because it ain't like you just said, doing ministry doesn't mean you're on staff at a church Correct Doing ministries. I know several people that carry, say, a prophetic gift that will never be on staff.
Speaker 3I mean we read it in Ephesians, right? Ephesians says that the purpose of the five gifts is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. Yeah, so if you're called to ministry, that does not mean that you will ever step foot on stage at a church. You may not ever get a chance to lead worship at a mega church in your area. I may never get the call to go stand on the stage at Elevation Church and preach behind Stephen Furtick's pulpit. We may never get these opportunities.
Speaker 3That does not mean that we are not called to ministry, right? Because the true work of the ministry goes far beyond that one hour that you spend at your local gathering of believers on a Sunday morning. So I do want to transition and I do want to talk about pastors, but I at least want to close out because we did talk a lot about the apostle. I think today at least, to kind of wrap that portion up. When we think about apostles today we may not see them. Like Adam said, we may not have apostles that come with fresh revelation of the way that Jesus did ministry and wanted us to do ministry, of the way that Jesus did ministry and wanted us to do ministry, but the apostle, the apostolic calling and anointing and gifting that we see today, is going to be the leader of the leaders that is willing to equip and serve the leadership of the local church. I think it's kind of the way that I would.
Speaker 4Can I add one thing to that? Absolutely, because I'm glad you are. You said the leader to the leaders and then you said serve them. A great way to think of that is servant to the servants. Sure, when we think of leading, we think of elevation. I don't mean elevation church, we think of promotion, but the way Jesus set it up we love to say servant leadership, and I feel like we're still putting a spin on it. It's servanthood, and so if you're going to be a leader to the leaders, then you need to be a servant to the servants, absolutely.
Speaker 2Dude, it's contagious and I think that's the key. I want to tell people when I'm in a room and you guys probably can name in this you can tell when a leader is super humble, yeah, and then you can also tell when there's they're full of ego and other things.
Speaker 4Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2The ego thing. I'm just okay. I know we're supposed to clean this up, but it pisses me off because I've seen so many people hurt in the church because of somebody that carries a title that let's say it this way they're gifted in the charismatic ability to move a room right, like they can gifted in the charismatic ability to move a room right Like they can.
Speaker 2I wouldn't call, I'm not calling Steve. Stephen Verdick can move a room by just his ability to, and I but I don't know Stephen Verdick as far as personal, but you brought his name up he's an atmosphere changer because of just his ability to articulate and his ability to be relevant. So all those things will draw you in. But the one thing that will just like if you've got the spirit of God living in you, one thing that will destroys that individual, the Steven verdict is when you just feel if he was very egotistic and again, which is an example, Cause I brought him up and he's a big name, exactly.
Speaker 2Dude, there's just something that turns in my stomach when I sense people that are. It goes back to the whole significance thing. They want to be so significant because if they feel like, if they get a certain job title in the realm or a gifting, then that's them being relevant and it's like man it destroys the family.
Speaker 3Yeah, I agree. I think it's huge to see somebody's outside of the pulpit personality. Yeah.
Speaker 2Oh yeah.
Speaker 3Because that I don't want to start harping on people and start being negative, but that's one of the things that you hear people complain about the most is oh, I met him in the Dallas airport not Stephen Furtick, but any church leader. They'll say, oh, I met him in the Dallas airport, or I met him here, I met him there and he was just a complete turd to me and it's like well, that sucks and I'm sorry that that happened to you. Yeah, because unfortunately, people statistics say that most people will never read the Bible, but all of them will read the people who say they read the Bible.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, absolutely. And so if the only and again, I'll just use him as an example. I've never met him and I've never heard somebody say this, so that's why I'm going to use him. Joel Osteen puts on a smile every Sunday that he preaches, but if someone sees him at Kroger buying groceries and he has a frown and is just a turd, they're going to be like, oh well, that God has to be fake, because that again we're getting on a rabbit trail.
Speaker 2Do they have helipads at Groger? Maybe, I don't know, on the land, on?
Speaker 3top of the building. But so here we want to talk about the pastors. So, pastors, I don't think that the people that we title as pastors today always necessarily carry the gifting or the anointing of a pastor.
Speaker 4I agree with you and I think it even goes to where we shame the giftings of pastor.
Speaker 3So here I read this book. And again, this book was written in 1993. So this thing is old. That means it's good. But this book is called the Complete Wineskin. And anybody who's ever met my wife, my wife told me when I announced my call to preach over a decade ago that she did not want to be a pastor's wife. I don't even remember who gave me this book. It might have been our pastor.
Speaker 2It may not have been. It's called the Complete Wineskin by Harold, or how do you say that, eberle? I think, eberle. Well, that's just our book. Shout out for our listeners. Yeah, because I feel like we have one every episode.
Speaker 3But I read this book and then I gave it to my wife and this book was very freeing for her, and the reason that I say that is because this book really lays out what a pastor truly is. So I'm actually going to read part of it. It's like almost a whole freaking paragraph. It says remember that we are not talking about the leader today who normally heads up a church, preaches and organizes. We are looking through God's eyes at God's anointings. The ministry gift of a pastor is the anointing that causes people to be supernaturally drawn out of the world and into the body of Christ. Three characteristic gifts need to be described concerning the gift, and you all can read this book. I'm not going to read all three of them to you, but the first one is very cool for me and it says the pastoral anointing establishes a certain kind of relationship between pastors and those that they lead. I think that a pastor today gets the title and I don't know where we came up with the title that the person who preaches every Sunday is called the pastor of the church. But I think that a true pastor is just someone who shepherds people. That's what I think that a true pastor is. That's why I think that if you're looking at leadership in the church, when you have a youth pastor or you have a small groups pastor, or you have this or you have that, those people are serving as someone who is shepherding the leaders in that area. The reason that I say this book was very freeing to my wife is because when I look at that definition of a pastor and then I look at the fruit that is in my wife's life, I tell people all the time she is a better definition and example of a pastor than I'll ever be, because people flock to her People who have never been to church, people who have been in church and have been hurt by the church, people who grew up in church and hated it and left the church. They all flock to her because they feel the love of Jesus coming from her, not in a sermon that she preaches on Sundays, but in the love that she gives them Monday through Sunday.
Speaker 3I have a perfect example of a friend of ours who and she would tell you this story herself but her definition that she gives is that she went rogue for a while, for a couple of years, and six months ago she came to our house. She called Jess and she said I just need to talk. She came to our house and sat at our house for like six hours and just unloaded. My wife may have said three words the entire time. It was mostly just like a yeah, sure, but just being able to love her, point her in the right direction and guide her back to the Holy Spirit has just shifted this girl's perspective.
The Role of a True Pastor
Speaker 3Yes, and she's one of those that kind of pushed us to plant the church when we did, and her fire for the Lord, just by somebody being willing to love on her and guide her, spoke so much more highly than any sermon that could ever be preached. Yeah, and for me that's what a true pastor is. There are people who preach on Sundays and I'm not going to throw shade at any of them, but there are people who preach on Sundays that are in no way, shape or form the biblical definition of a pastor, because they are mean outside the pulpit, they are unapproachable, no one likes to be around them because they're so egotistical. But they are good at communicating, and so we put them on the stage and we let them lead, but yet nobody wants to be near them or shepherded by them. A true pastor is simply a shepherd of people that people are drawn to Can.
Speaker 4I say something real quick. I want you to take off, otherwise I'll keep talking. This came from a conversation I had with a. This didn't come from the church I've been a part of for a long time. This came from somebody who is what you would call a production coach, like an educational source, where I was like trying to better, like hone skills, so to speak, and he said, if you want your ministry to be successful, he goes, this is going to break your pastor's heart. Pause, he goes. The pastor's heart that you have, he goes. This is going to break it. He goes.
Speaker 4All of those things that are pastoral, they're pay to play, he said if they can't produce growth, you said you're not going to get to do them. And that was one of those things to where it's like how in the world is this? This could be an indictment of just the modern Western church, but what he was saying in essence was what we're calling pastor is not pastoral. We're wanting CEOs, we're wanting entertainers. Pastoral, we're wanting CEOs, we're wanting entertainers. And if the pastoral giftings are not giving those type of results, we don't want them. And it comes down to that, to where we try to lump everything into one term, but we've missed the mark on what that term is supposed to be, and so in that we can look at somebody who shepherds people. The shepherd isn't the one going out and finding more sheep, he's taking care of the sheep he has.
Speaker 2Absolutely. That's another gift.
Speaker 4Yeah, and it's not even the pastor's role to feed. It's the pastor's role to get them there so they can eat. But that's the problem is, we miss the mark of what pastor is. Pastor is not CEO, but what we do is we take great business, people or great the term or the book to win friends and influence people. You know what I'm talking about. Like, you should be gaining influence, but if we look at winning friends and influencing people, whatever as just getting people to follow you, that's a fisher of men. That's an evangelist. There's nothing wrong with that. We'll talk about that in the next episode yeah next episode.
Speaker 4But the pastor and shepherd, whatever you want to call it. Their job is to take care of the ones who are already a part of the flock, so to speak.
Speaker 3So I think a good example if I'm telling you a good example of a pastor, like when I'm thinking about a modern church. So we have a pretty big church in our area not the one that you guys grew up in and I actually like this church. The church is called Foothills Church, right here in Maryville, and I have a friend of mine who serves as a small group leader and he has people in his house every Sunday. Him and his wife cook dinner for him and they have a small group every Sunday. To me he's a pastor. He would never let me call him pastor because he doesn't think that that's a title that he has but in essence, what he is doing is he is caring for a portion of the flock that God has entrusted to that body of believers and he is shepherding them and encouraging them to continue to get back, to get fed over and over again. What we've done today is we've taken all five giftings and all five anointings and we've tried to wrap them into one and we put them on one person and we say you are the pastor of this church. Therefore, you have to be the apostle, you have to shepherd people, you have to evangelize, you have to prophesy and you have to teach. That is a very quick way to watch a church die because that is too much for one person to do. That is why we say that we are a body of believers. Die because that is too much for one person to do. That is why we say that we are a body of believers.
Speaker 3One thing that I've promised my wife is that we will be a church just like we Are. Lions wants to be this type of ministry. We will be a church where we equip and empower people to serve in the giftings that they have. We will have pastors on staff, not just me and Jess. We will have teachers on staff. We will have prophets that are a part of the church, and when I say staff, I don't necessarily mean paid staff, just people that you can call People who are there.
Speaker 3We will have evangelists who are a part of our church, and it will not always just be Jess and I who are doing the teaching or preaching on Sundays, because I think that, again, part of operating inside an apostolic gifting is to raise up and train people and to allow them to operate inside the giftings that God has given them. Up and train people and to allow them to operate inside the giftings that God has given them, and I think then we will start to see the body of Christ grow as we let people operate inside the gifting that God has given them. I think that we've just given that term, pastor, too much responsibility. Yeah, here you go.
Speaker 2Imagine you and your family sat around the dinner table and we said Corey's the only one allowed to talk. You wouldn't have unity.
Speaker 3None. You'd have a dictatorship and I think and we wouldn't have anything fun.
Speaker 2No, and I think that goes back to the whole family atmosphere I mean, because you're even talking about your buddy not feeling called. How much of that is cultural? How much of that has been taught in denominations that you do not have a true gift unless you go to seminary and I think that is a whole nother podcast for another day. But that that's an equally thing that, like, you have the ability with your discernment to call that out to him, say, bro, you are doing it and you have that gift and you are shepherding, you're carrying it. But if he's got leadership that says, well, no, you're not a you're not a pastor, because you didn't go through the same credentials we did.
Speaker 2And I'm not picking on that, I'm saying I see that in a lot of churches as what's your authority. I remember I had a conversation one time I was serving in Yoke and I had an individual where she did not believe the same thing. We believed in Jesus, we believed in the dogmatics, right, but we did not believe in the giftings of the Holy Spirit and everything else. And I said and I pretty much was talking about I said so you really believe you have to go to school to like, and that was her whole stance is like well, you should. It's 2020, something you know.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 2I said it's not bad. I said I know education is important, but if you think your gifting comes from some professor giving you a piece of paper, I said I think I'm going to be pretty bold and say I think you've missed it?
Importance of Theological Training in Ministry
Speaker 4Yeah, let me say this about that. I know we have to wrap up. I do not think callings come from education. I do, however, think it's vitally important to be theologically trained. Oh, absolutely, because giftings come from God and God alone. Right, but proper training is not giving you a gifting, it's teaching Like it's giving you. Some people come in and say I need to learn more about the Bible so I can teach it. Great, awesome. But theological training is more important than doctrinal or doctrinal certitude. I never say it right or like, because you can go to Baptist seminary and be an expert in hermeneutics yeah. Or you can go to the Pentecostal seminary and become an expert in this. You can go to this seminary and become an expert, and that's all well and good. But theological training how do you like? Teaching you how to think is vastly more important than knowing what your specific denomination thinks about this certain issue.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, how much? Let's think about it. It's a bold statement. But what if Paul? I understand we could, let me say this way what if Paul didn't have all that theological training? I know it was in the law, but what if he didn't have all that theological training before his conversion? Yeah, but what if he didn't have all that theological training before his conversion? Yeah, I think his theological training is the ability with the Old Testament, is now with the Spirit of God. Imagine being that guy. I think that's why he can move so quickly from being blinded to being sent out.
Speaker 3Well, so I think, theological training. I'll give you this example. This is something I just thought about because I want to do an Ironman.
Speaker 1Yo, I know how to swim.
Speaker 3I know how to swim, I know how to ride a bike and I know how to run. But one thing that I promised, jess, is that if I decide to do an Ironman, I'll get a coach. Yeah, because a coach will not teach me how to swim, they won't teach me how to run, they won't teach me how to bike. They will help me be more efficient and be better at the skills that I already have. And so theological training or theological schooling and this is one thing I tell Jess, this is why I want to go to seminary it's not going to make me who I am, but it will help me hone skills and gain understanding and gain wisdom, so that I can then better, I can be better equipped to continue the work that God has given me.
Speaker 4Can we close on this? I thought about reading the entirety of 1 Corinthians 12, where it talks about spiritual gifts and one body with many members. I think that'd be too long to close with. But if we like to think that, like modern seminaryary or theological schooling whatever you want to call it is a modern idea over the last couple hundred years, it's not. You'll hear theologians talk about the school of Paul. That was not an official school, nothing like that. But there are people who believe that Paul wrote some of the letters and some of them were some of his disciples writing. They can tell that by the language used and just the writing style, so to speak. But that's part of Paul's apostolic stuff is he trained people so well that they could write in his name.
Speaker 3I mean, weren't there times where Paul said here's my signature in my own handwriting? So you know that I at least read this.
Speaker 4Yeah. But going back to this, all of Christianity, what we understand now is Christianity. It came from deeper, deeper thing. Jesus gave us a model of a way of life. Paul is the one who fleshed out the belief system, so to speak. Paul and the Jerusalem apostles. But even after that, over the next couple centuries, you have different schools of Christianity. What we know in the West was heavily influenced by Augustine, and I forget which one he came from. Forgive me, but we have one school of thought and it's been passed down and shifted and run through some filters, whatnot. But Augustine's school of thought was one school of Christian training, theological training, and that's what's influenced Western Christianity.
Speaker 4One of the things in the Orthodox faith is that they believe that there's a system of whatever you want to call it, fathers and sons, whatever they believe, that they are the true body, so to speak, that it's been passed down from Jesus to the apostles and from so on so forth to their teaching. And I think there is truth to that. But all of this, you didn't just get saved and then all of a sudden become a voice. You didn't just get saved and all of a sudden become a leader. The early church would call it. You were catechized, you were taught even before you were baptized. You had to go through the system of training, and this isn't a new thing. This isn't an expression of dead religion saying that you have to take your gifts and then submit it to doctrinal teaching. That's not the case. It's being formed. Spiritual formation, theological formation All of this is being formed, and it started with the apostles.
Speaker 2Sure, correct, and I think we'll recap what you just said and then we're going to close out. Yeah, is theological. Being in the realm of a seminary, bible school, whatever you want to call it, is very, very, very important. I think that's key to tell everybody, even what Corey just said as a senior going to be a senior pastor, or you are a senior pastor technically pursue. You know, even my pastor said that if I had to do it over again, I would have pursued some sort of biblical degree or whatever you want to call it, because it's profitable. It's profitable to hone in on those skills. But again, if you've got a call, what are you doing with it? I think that's my challenge.
Speaker 2Let's end the podcast with a challenge and then maybe you guys want to say something else. Recap. My challenge is if you feel like you have a gift, don't shut that up. Find someone that can help hold you accountable to it, steward it. Find a good leader in your life to push you to, to flesh out things in your life, to say, hey, I've received the help so I can give. I receive because I give Right, and so I think that's my challenge. Anyone listening to this is we just gave an hour to two giftings that you could give a whole year to one of those things. So hear what we're saying. If we just want to help maybe help some of our listeners understand what we believe about some of these giftings of the fivefold. And the next one you hear will be part two.
Speaker 3Or if you have more questions, right, I mean, cause we have. No, we did not have enough time and we don't have enough time to cover them to the full depth that we could. But if you have more questions, reach out to us in an email. Maybe we can come back to it, circle back to it at a later episode, but reach out to us at wearelionsministry at gmailcom. Let us know. Be like hey, I listened to that episode.
Speaker 3Can you guys go back and touch more on this part of the apostle in a future episode? We're happy to do that because, again, the fivefold ministry was laid out by Paul to be the leadership of the New Testament church and each of those giftings should have a. I mean it should have its own episode at some point and maybe we will, because there is so much depth to the people that God is calling and putting in those positions. We talked about it about education being important, but education and training is not a deal breaker and it doesn't change who God has called you to be and if God has called you to shepherd people, you better shepherd people to the best of your ability. Can I say something on?
Speaker 4that and then, yeah, you say it and then pray. When it comes to the education and the giftings and whatnot, you do not have to. You can be a pastor and not be formally trained. I don't think you will be as effective as you could be. But if you go, get formally trained but God has not called you to shepherd the lives of the people in your church, then all that training does not mean squat. Yeah, if you have an evangelist heart and you go to school to be a pastor, it's what you feel called to do. That doesn't make you a shepherd to people. Sure, same thing. You can have a pastor's heart, but if you're being forced to work in the role of an evangelist, you're not going to be as effective. So, though, training is important, training does not give the calling and, in my opinion, training does not trump calling. Come on, training is important to go along with your calling.
Speaker 3Let's go All right. So the next episode we're going to cover the other three giftings. Again, they're not any less important because we're covering three of them instead of two. We just want to try to knock it out in two episodes, and the terminology for pastor and apostle, I think, is the two that hangs people up the most. I think that's why we chose to focus on just two of them in this first episode. So, Johnny, you want to pray us out? Yeah?
Speaker 2absolutely. I'm about to cough because it's now. I'm ready.
Speaker 3Now he's ready. He cleared his throat.
Speaker 2Let's pray. Father, I just thank you for just this avenue to release what's in our hearts from the we Are Lies crew. Not for the benefit, just to hear our voices, lord at all. It's to really help the body to raise up, to encourage some individuals out there that are holding on. Maybe they had question marks with some of the things we talk about, because the truth is, we all have question marks. We all need to grow, we all need to seek counsel in areas of our life to become better.
Speaker 2But that's the posture in which I pray, that our hearts are and every listener is Teach us, lord, so we can become more like you and not like just man, because, god, we want to be like you, we want to look like you, we want to be the definition of love, humility, god, and kindness and joy and all the giftings, lord, and all those fruits, lord. But, god, I pray that you just use this podcast to change hearts, change lives, change the trajectory of a family, a generation, and maybe it's through this podcast or maybe it's just us planting a seed. But, god, I pray that if anyone's listening to us and Father, they've not really fully committed their heart to you, or that I think salvation and rededication is more important than anything. So, god, I pray that you honor the individual listening, that's taking it to heart right now. And, god, we just want to say thank you. We give you all the glory in Jesus name, amen, love you guys.
Speaker 1Thank you guys for joining us here at the we Are Alliance podcast. We're so thankful that you have spent some time with us. Hopefully you have been encouraged. Hopefully you feel like your faith has grown a little bit more. That is our heart, that is our intent is to see you get closer to Jesus and become that reflected image Again. If you want to partner with us, we'd love your financial support. Check out the bio. There will be a link for our PayPal, because we can't do this without your continued prayers and support, so please consider that. Hey, you have an incredible rest of your week and we hope to see you back here on the next episode. Bye.